Making Sense of Suffering

0:05 Yo yo, this is BradQuan, host of the Weirdinary podcast and recently I was asked what my favorite restaurant is and without a doubt I said Son of Egg. Located at 483 Broadway in Renle, New York. Why Son of Egg? Because every time I step foot in this establishment, I instantly feel a celebration of community, creativity, intellectualism, and humanity. And I mean, it goes without saying, but I'm gonna say it anyway. The food is spectacular. Now, why is this spectacular, you ask? Well, my god. Because whenever I bite into it, I feel like I'm at home. Tappiness on a bay. 483 Broadway, New York. You want to eat? Eat with the best.

1:16 All right. All right. Yo yo, welcome to another episode of Weirdinary. I'm your host, BradQuan, and today I have a very special guest. This brother is a writer, educator, and community arts organizer with roots in Niskuna. He is a former Niskauna High School and division one Sacred Heart University football player. Wide receiver to be exact. Correct. Absolutely, sir. Yes, sir. Wide receiver. This brother earned a bachelor's in theology and religious studies from Sacred Heart. studied religion and literature at Yale School of Divinity. Exclamation point on that. Emphasize that [bleep] Yeah, for sure. Deans list honore and inductee into Theta Alpha Kappa, the National Honor Society for Religious Studies and Theology. This man won Sacred Hearts 2018 writing across the curriculum first prize for my interview with a con. He is a former fourth grade lead teacher at Great Hearts Academy and lead tutor at Sacred Heart. This brother worked as a production assistant on 90-Day Fiance and was a and is a freelance writer for the New Haven Promise newsletter.

2:29 Excuse me. Organized writing workshops, open mics, and art exhibitions through Lada Studio. His brother has held roles in research access at Yale's Divinity Library and athletics management at District Athletic Club. Listen, people, this man is this man is special. You know what I'm saying? He's somebody who came onto my radar through uh through um a brother named uh Samuel Maurice. Um a recent interviewee I did uh and uh he told me, he said, "Yo, you got to interview this guy. He's very philosophical. He's got a lot of gems to share and I'm just sitting here talking to him before we even get this [bleep] cracking. I'm like, yo, this this this guy has got a mind on his shoulders. Much appreciated. You know what I'm saying? I listen, ladies and gentlemen, Ouen Aenat. Much perfect, man. I absolutely man, great to be a part of it, man. I appreciate the introduction and I just Man, absolutely. And and and please I mean did I cuz I I I you got to do your research on people. I just want to make sure like did I miss anything? Did I It's uh we had it down too. It was um M with M at the end. Okay.

3:43 But no, that was you were bringing up things I I I literally like forgot. It kind of invigorated me and just had me like, you know, that little deep breath I took. I'm like, man, I really did do that. as you, you know, as you move your way into the world deeper and deeper and get out of these places, whether it be high school, college, grad school, like you forget all that stuff you did, you know what I mean, it becomes uh and we could talk about the idea of a resume. It's it's a piece of paper, but you know, it becomes things you just put in the back of your mind cuz you're just trying to make it through the day or the season that Yeah. And you know, I'm like I'm I'm I'm peeping all this [bleep] I'm like the the discipline. Yeah. Yeah. And you know what I mean, just the just the fortitude. It's just like there's there's a lot that comes with this. I mean, and you you worked on the uh the 90-day fiance. Yeah, that was a cool experience, man. That was when I I had first made it out to Phoenix. Like I was saying, I was uh I was born in Phoenix originally. That's the birthplace. And uh about 3 years ago, I had just been fed up with these winters out here. I was back living here. And I [snorts] was like, you know what?

4:48 My mom was still living out there. I'm like, mom, I think I'm going to give Phoenix a go. She was always telling me to move out there. So, um, you know, got out there, did that, and was kind of in these odd jobs and eventually found myself teaching where I was, but kind of as I was diving into that was diving into trying to just get on sets, trying to get on sets, trying to, you know what I mean, trying to be a filmmaker. And I think the best way um, I don't think there is a best way to go about that. I think one of the great ways to go about that is to just, I needed to familiarize myself with sets. So any sets that were coming through Phoenix, I was, you know, just on whether it be a site staff me up or just on the internet kind of googling, searching. So I found 90day Fiance, you know, never seen the show, but I was like, let me just pop on and be a PA. And it was honestly like it was not only really cool, but like it was crazy how accessible you were to just the the the stars, I guess, the just talking to you, you know what I mean, [laughter] in the break. So, you know, just conversations like this. And it's kind of it's kind of odd cuz there there's really odd pairings of people. I guess couples are never, you know, as they seem. But it it was just cool, you know, being there and, you know, working on that and seeing how, you know, for something that they might show for 3 minutes on film could take.

6:04 Yeah. I mean, I've never like actually watched it myself, but I I mean, I've seen bits and pieces, right? You know what I'm saying? And it it's it was on uh comes on Hulu. Okay. If I if if I'm not mistaken. So, when I saw that, I'm like, "Yo, this guy's got motion." Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I appreciate it, brother. That was a real I think uh you know, I don't want to say transactional, but that was definitely an act to to get myself, you know, some more motion and just in the industry. And honestly, just just see how directors run a set, whether it be reality TV or a short film, you know what I mean? It all helps with a larger goal. And you I I mean, dude, just you're I mean, the resume speaks for itself. I mean to keep hive hiding what we already know, but I'm going to say because I know that you want to be a writer and from tapping into the interview with a con. Uh your piece um that that that you wrote that is highly indicative of somebody who needs to be in writing. You know what I mean? Whether it's show writing, film writing, novel, I mean I think you can do it all.

7:19 Thank you, brother. Thank you. And um just the um just the concept the the the the the synopsis. It's an African-American man uh in this Catholic university who uh dresses up as Jesus. Yeah. For Halloween and how that and how that stirs up controversy and it was inspired through the uh Dear White People. Yeah. In ways. in ways I think because uh you know things are just on your consciousness when you So I had seen Dear White People Maybe a semester before. I'm like damn that's pretty dope. Talk about the show or the film. The at the time it was the show. Same. Yeah. And then later in the Yeah. Cuz it's weird how we all I guess in our generation most of us had seen the show before the movie. Yeah. But the movie came out first. The movie came out first. They made it into a show. Um, but yeah, I had seen that and it was probably just on my mind and so I had a midterm coming up, I think a final and I was just like, man, what am I going to do? Like I had all these, you know, you either write an essay, do this and I'm like, I want to go the creative route. So I kind of staged and Halloween was coming up so I I kind of staged this interview, you know, whether you're at especially if you're at a PWC, you know, these race relation things are always in the air.

8:36 And so I was like, what if I did just and I had seen a picture of Kendrick Lamar dressed up as Jesus. Um just a random picture online and just was like boom, that's it. There's a story there. What if a black dude at Sacred Heart dressed up as Jesus? I think the campus would go crazy. So it kind of just stirred into and then the idea to do it as a podcast, you know, to kind of retell it, you know, the story is kind of set in this podcast like we're doing right now and just having, you know, a character describe the events of the scene go down. That was just because podcasts were just on my mind then. You know, they were um still nent, still new, but and new to me, but I was just heavy into listening to podcasts. So, you know, at the time, this is going to sound maybe crazy to people, but I think I named the character. So, my character is a con. Um, but I think the the host of the podcast was named Ror Rory Button. Yes. Yo. Yeah. I was like, that's a literal Yeah. Rory from the Joe Buddton podcast. And I was like I'm like, what the [bleep] Cuz when I saw that before I made the connection, I'm like, is this his pen name or something like that?

9:40 But I'm like, now that we're talking about it, it's literally just like, what? Let me just, you know, what name can I pick? And you know, it's drawing an illusion to their podcast, but it's just like Rory, but like it just makes it easy, you know? That [bleep] that [bleep] is that [bleep] is good, man. And I like the approach you took because it's crazy how we're so we're so immersed within this within this [bleep] fallacy within this false way of thinking that Jesus was white. Oh my god. Oh my god. Simply because of uh simply because of how a portrait was painted centuries ago based on another white. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And it's like you think about I mean god damn you you literally in the Bible he had skin of bronze and hair of wool. This man was not white. Was not white. So it's but but it's just like it stirs up so much controversy when whenever he's depicted as anything other than that. I know. And it really bothers me that point and the fact that like when you do depict God as white, it makes it not only empowers uh white people, but it makes people that are not white sort of, you know, devalue themselves to white people in the world and just to whiteness as as this sort of god in the world, which which it's not. And you know, I always think about this quote by James Baldwin. He's like, uh, it's in the fire next time. And I don't want to misquote, but something like white people believe, white people and black people believe God gave white people the power, like God decreed it. So, and I'm I'm butchering this quote, but the way and he writes just so well.

11:16 He does that it's very, you know, you want to get it on point, but you know, I think that that that was what really was the impetus for me. That really bothered me. The fact that like we've all been sort of indoctrinated to believe this thing and it's not true. and it makes you sort of lower your own self. Um, and it gives white people this fallacy to stand on, you know, like you said, and it's something cuz it's so easy to be colorblind in in in this society when, you know, racism isn't as overt as it once was. I mean, in some in some instances, it very well is, but it's not like it was back in the 40s, 50s, and 60s. So, it's easy for somebody, it's easy for an African-American growing up within, you know, in America, you know what I mean, not fully understanding the weight of racism. And that's something that I fell into. Okay. And I had to grow out of that, you know what I mean? Because I wasn't taught, you know, uh, the the the cultural values and whatnot. You know what I'm saying? It's just not something that I was well immersed in. And as I got older and I started to get exposed to different things and I started to realize the ways that I was thinking were were were false and you know what I mean? I'm I'm like there's there's there's more to this. I'm holding myself back and I felt disgusted with myself.

12:42 But I couldn't be so hard on myself for what I didn't know. Right. But you know just that that shame I had it it pushed me to to to to obtaining more information. for sure. And yeah, I mean um and understanding that you know that our that this that this individual was not was not that it it it it helps to give more power, more enlightenment, you know what I mean? More courage to people of color. You know what I'm saying? Absolutely. And um you know what's interesting is I I I wanted to uh ask you uh based on that story because it was there's an interesting um there's an interesting relationship you have for uh you know between standing up for what you believe in and how it intertwines with the ego and um what I want to ask is uh through a con um you explore the tension between standing up for what you believe in and being driven my ego. Mhm.

13:44 Uh that said, how do you recognize that difference within yourself? That's a that's a great question. That's that's not only a great question, but it it hearkens me back to like that moment of writing the story. I was I was a theology major, correct? And I was uh super into I think people can see that and just be like, "Oh, you were like into like studying Christianity or you wanted to be a priest." And that that was not me. I was getting super interested in like eastern philosophies and religion. Interesting. So the ego became important to me from a a Buddhist sense like what is this thing that we you know feed into and you know create these stories and uh almost mythologize within ourel and there's this beautiful quote that I heard a year later in grad school. It's like uh because Buddhism or Buddhism rather is is a lot about like emptying yourself and it was this beautiful quote kind of between like the intersectionality between Buddhism and Christianity. Um empty empty until but I yearn to be full like I yearn for something. Um but I think in terms of answering your question it's a very it's a very like thin line. I I think that we and I think it's very precient now. I think a lot of people stand on the high horse of, man, I'm just trying to do right by my people or I'm just trying to, you know, they have this righteous cause, but it's really feeding their ego. And I don't think we all necessarily either know we're doing it or we don't always know. Like ultimately we're trying to like there there is there is a a way to um you know lead and uh you know just resist and and you know to do right in the world and to try to you know um

15:34 write wrongs that we've seen in the world. Um but I I do think there's also a place that we can be trying to fill and that sometimes can be dangerous that can lead to us you know acting out of ego you know and and and and trying to obtain this sort of power and you know power can corrupt. So um yeah, you see and it's interesting because I [bleep] with Buddhism in a sense it's like okay we are always within capitalism we are always suffering because we we there's there's that constant desire for more. You know what I'm saying? Absolutely. And if you when you can eradicate that desire for more, that constant want, you know what I mean? That's when you live within peace. That's heaven on earth. And it's like I get it, but at the same time, it's so it's so it's so tough because I think about what Mike Tyson said. He said, "You got to kill the ego. You got to eliminate it." And I'm like, "That's real.

16:41 That's real." But it's easy for him to say because he got he got it. He was at a point where he was the baddest [bleep] on the planet. Yeah. And he had everything he needed to realize, damn, I had it all and then I [bleep] it up. But if you're just [bleep] up from the beginning and, you know, still in the the the the thraws of the rat race and or if you're just down bad and you you just need the basic things to survive and, you know, uh and then us being not only uh I almost feel like it's independent of capitalism, us just being intelligent people that know we can make a mark on the world. It's like, man, but I have so much to fulfill. Yes. Am I going for the ego or am I just going for what I'm here to do? I feel like but I I feel see the ego I've come to learn it the ego is a wonderful servant but a terrible master me. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I just I feel like it's not the ego isn't inherently evil. I don't think so either. Neither is capitalism. I don't think so either. I think the ways that where we are right now is incredibly [bleep] up. Yes. Because I don't even think people realize that capitalism is as big of an ism as racism or sexism. Like it's it's at that point where we we very much see people through the eyes of you're a means to an end.

18:00 you are uh a thing that I can just use to uh platform myself this like or you know we even the way we just see like I I look out and I just see houses you know I there should be um I don't I don't I just think there's another way of seeing I think there's another way of seeing and maybe even in ways I can't articulate but I know that like when it's all said and done and you know the body leaves you and wherever we go after this. I know that capitalism isn't going to be a part of that. And maybe we'll have to atone for these sins. And I think that's the kind of Catholic part that I still have within me. Um, but I don't I don't think capitalism is this inherently evil thing. But I think we've got to a place where it's like, damn, we've we've really to the point where if a baby's born today, they're just born in it. They just get rolling right on it. You know, these beliefs we just inherit. Let me ask you, if you had the ability to ch to alter the trajectory of this of this economical structure, what would it what would society look like?

19:11 I I definitely would um I I wouldn't even say just less of a gap between the halves and have nots. I I would just um That's a great question. I don't even think things are feasible now for people just to have their basic needs. Um, I definitely think I would I would I don't know. Even me trying to say maybe I would take from the billionaires and then give back, but that's also like that doesn't sit right with me. Like taking from other people, even if they're billionaires and like [bleep] them to a certain, but I don't want to take what they So, I I honestly don't know. It's wild because on one end it's like they earned it, but at the end of the day you get you get to a point where you're so rich where it's like there's no way you got here without exploiting other people. Exactly. You know what I'm saying? Big time.

20:07 And it's like there's so much that you have like do you really need all that? Like you know what I mean? I don't know. I mean I would say one thing I would hope and this is not even like I don't think it's so much like a structure thing or a function thing that's outside of us. So, I don't know how to do it, but I I think that people ultimately should have what they're uh kind of worth. Like I I don't think that like profits are really incredibly smart people that could help the world should be struggling just to make a dollar cuz that ultimately hurts the world because they don't have what they need just to just to, you know, survive. So, they can't ultimately blossom and bloom. So, yeah. And it manifests into ways that that are incredibly detrimental to society as a whole. Like you look at other countries that implement a uh unison of capitalism as well as socialism and these it's like they have their basic needs. It's like they may pay higher taxes but they have universal healthcare. Exactly. Right. And in places like this where people have every the the basic necess necessities, there's less violent crime big time. You know what I'm saying?

21:26 And it's like I mean if if we just instilled that here, I mean what the [bleep] I mean me personally and make no mistake like yo like we're we're we're working class. We're struggling but I'm cool with paying high I'm cool with it as well paying higher taxes as long as as for for universal healthcare so everybody can have what they need. I'm cool with that. I'm cool with that, too. And I think even in terms of violent crime, you know, there's something I was just listening to this clip by Malcolm Gladwell, and I don't know the context cuz I saw it on Instagram, so I saw like maybe 90 seconds of it. But he's like, the thing that's different about America, cuz he grew up right in not just Canada, but Toronto, which is right there. He's like, it's always been just a violent place. It's been a violent Toronto. No, no, no. America. So, he's looking from Toronto. Like, why? Like, I'm looking at the Buffalo News. Buffalo's 30 minutes away from me, but there's a killer here. There's this happening. there's this and America's always been a violent place, you know, since its inception. And I think that has a lot to do like the origins. And I try to kind of talk about that with the the piece I did on a con. Uh things don't just happen to vanish. Things aren't just in a vacuum. Like if you kind of started your whatever on some [bleep] it's going to continue to karmically manifest. But I do think like if if we get if even if our tax money went to just cuz violence is like this amorphic thing like where does it come from in our country cuz it's so prevalent. If our tax dollars can help just like eliminate violence cuz we live in an incredibly violent society. I would be so for that.

22:56 Yeah. Yeah, I'd be so I think we're a lot like we're we're a very paranoid society which just feeds into itself cuz we're also like this incredibly violent society, you know, and the thing about it is I've been thinking a lot about it and I think about I think about all of the atrocities that have happened throughout history, all the [bleep] that's happening and everything and just you you think and it's so easy for us to say like this [bleep] these these violent acts and whatnot. They they they it's all happening for no reason. And I don't want to justify violence, but if it's but from a philosophical standpoint, the way I look at it is like the things we deem as what we deem to be right and wrong is actually a fallacy in our thinking because everything that happens regardless of its magnitude is supposed to happen. M there's a cosmic there's a cosmic reasoning even we may not be able to understand it in the moment but it's like the death of innocence presents the demand for purpose.

24:06 Interesting. Yeah. And the way I see that is like think about it like without the atrocities of slavery and racism you don't get Dr. King. No. You don't get Malcolm X. You don't get Harriet Tubman. Yeah. You know, and it's like, you know, you think about it and it's like this [bleep] is this [bleep] is this [bleep] that happens is [bleep] up. But it's like that pain, that suffering is it's like it's it it it plants the seed in somebody that can take a stand, that's meant big time to take a stand. You know, it just it hurts me so much that that, you know, death is at the cost. That's Yeah, death is at the cost. And I, you know, I want to uh, you know, give that magnitude like death is at the cause, but I also like pose this question like, do you believe that there's just like a, I don't know if I call it an energy or just a presence, but this this this sort of like uh, it's not a human, but just this thing that exists in the world that is, you know, violent or benevolent that just can enter a body or a soul like, oh, you're Oh, yeah.

25:16 It's interesting. I'm I'm I'm Yo, bro, that's crazy. Yeah, [sighs] it's weird, right? Yeah, cuz like why why is it's like it's it's like Satan takes the acts in vessel. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like like like God can present itself within vessel. Yeah. I mean cuz if there's a sense of divin, it's like there's a sense of divinity that lives within all of us, but there's also that sense of evil too. There's that there's that that and there's this beautiful quote by Carl Young. It's like the further the branches reach into heaven, the further the roots dig deep dig deep down into hell. Something along those lines. If you can if you can plunge a hole to hell, you can build a ladder to heaven. Absolutely. That's a fact. And I even think the mind that's like open enough to be able to like really experience love and like really like kind of build those ladders to heaven is is is capable of like doing some [bleep] up [bleep] Yeah. 100%. And and I think and it's funny I have this conversation often. A few months ago I realiz I learned that evil spelled backwards is live.

26:26 Yeah. And I've come to realize that you can't fully live until you understand that we as humans are all capable of committing evil big time. Not that we will, but the possibility does exist. Yeah. I I love the movie. Did you end up seeing the drama that came out earlier this year? What's it called? The drama with Zenaia and Robert Patson. First of all, I mean, two things. Like Zenaia, I never realized why she was a star into that movie. I I I how do I say it? I never saw what people saw in SEA and and and that is like a I mean that with the most I don't mean a shock. I was just like I kind of I saw Euphoria. I liked it like you know stopped watching it. I never saw really any of her other movies. Um but she's a star that and as one of our generation stars you know the the Leo, the Merryill Streets, the Denzels, Michael B. Um, I guess Michael B and her are the same generation, but it's like, uh, you it takes one movie for them to see, but that movie, it kind of speaks on what we're speaking of because like you can't, um, you don't always have to ignore the fact that you can, these evil thoughts can live within you, whether it be the smallest thing, someone cuts you off, you think, whatever, or, you know, just knowing you're capable of some crazy [bleep] But that's like very human.

27:47 And and then there's a control, there's a discipline of like I'm not going to act on that because not only does it not feel right with me, our society stays in order by these social contracts that we don't even acknowledge that I'm like I'm not going to go along the street and just knock your hat off because what am I doing to my world? Like we exist in that every day when you I I'll never forget when my dad taught me how to drive. who was like he was very serious obviously and he was I I we would argue a lot but he's like no when you drive you are entering a contract with somebody saying I'm going to be safe and the rest of the drivers on the road are going to be safe like cuz you're capable of crazy and you know I don't even want to talk like that but like that's what you're entering and we have all these little built-in things in our human mechanism that does that and that's how societ that's why society even is what it is like I think Thomas Hobbes talks about that a little bit. Um, but that's why we even because you know we are primal.

28:49 We are uh anim animalistic. We are we do have these I don't even want to call them like lower vibe but these lower animal you know things to us that can make us just but we don't think about it bro it's the the the [bleep] uh Freudian's ego theory. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like the you know what I mean? Yeah. That's that's that that lizard brain, that animal, you know what I mean? Like that [bleep] is that that's that's a thing, you know what I mean? And it's something that you have these intrusive thoughts and whatnot and it's so easy to think like, yo, what's wrong with me? But, [laughter] right, that's that's that's the brain operating the way it's supposed to. Like, we're so like, you know what I mean? Like these these it's it's it's how the consciousness works big time. How you how you like only actions speak the truth. Exactly. But we're so willing to condemn. We're so quick to condemn people for thoughts. Yeah. Oh my god. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And I'm like I'm not saying that certain thoughts don't have shouldn't be addressed, but it's like yo, if unless you do it right, what the [bleep] You know what I'm saying?

29:56 I'm not Yeah. I'm not with that. And also like you know even to think about you know thoughts and all these things like like we said like these things can just we don't even know what we're made of in terms of uh past lives just personalities and all these things that kind of make you who you are that you know like a test will tell you you're just a type A person or type there's so much more to like a human uh personality and a human uh self and like an outlook. book um that I I don't think we always attri or that when we do attribute it can be like well you're just being a little bit too uh spiritual tarot cardi or you know uh horoscopy and I can even be like oh well you know I can even fall into that thinking someone being oh you're just a Pisces that's why you think that you know what I mean but there's all these things that we don't even know that contribute to who we are um that always you know take investigating but also just can take like uh acknowledging the I don't know part of that and like there's beautifulness in the the the unknown and just kind of leaving it at that you know for with respect you know investigating but kind of also like giving that space to just be like well I don't even know where that comes from I don't know where my love for being curious or writing or uh you know the the the lower things the evil thought I don't know where that comes from you know I think for me It comes from a desire to truly understand the inner workings of humanity. You know what I'm saying? It's it's just a desire to know to it's just a desire to be more. Like so like in this society, one thing that used to bother me so much within capitalism, we all want more. Yeah. I want to be more.

31:49 You know what I'm saying? And and and I think the the the the the the incessant need I have to just sit with the, you know, the spectrum, you know what I mean, of good and evil and really analyze, bro. I'll literally sit here and watch these [bleep] serial killer documentaries and I'll find parallels with me and them. Not on some crazy [bleep] but to like yo, like this is a human being. You know what I'm saying? And it's like, you know, there is a connecting point that exists within all of us. We just lack the patience to get there. If you have patience is a virtue for a reason. You'd be surprised who you can who you can connect with. It's interesting. You know what I'm saying? For sure. And it's like, yo, and you never know. I mean, [bleep] like you take these people that have done these bad things, these terrible [bleep] things. cuz you had somebody that maybe, and this is just a theory, but maybe if somebody really had the patience to really, you know, get to know this individual, really connect with this individual, and this person was able to understand that, you know, they're not so different. They're not so much of an outcast. Maybe things would have been different.

33:02 Patience is a virtue for a reason. You know what I'm saying? And I just feel like I just feel like we we live within this fallacy that, you know, it's us versus them. And it it's dude, it's just us. Like we I always say I have two two things I say. It's like we're all victims of the same disease. We just exhibit our symptoms differently. And the disease is, you know what I'm saying? What what's a disease in that? The disease like we're all victims of capitalism. You know what I'm saying? And everything that stems from it, you know what I mean? The transactional perception of people, the greed, the selfish, you know what I mean? To some extent, we all fall within. For sure. for sure at first stem like you said like yes you know what I'm saying we all exhibit the symptoms differently like it's all from the same root you know what I'm saying but we don't express these actions and thoughts and feelings the same way you know what I'm saying and it's like you know it's like cuz I'll I'll constantly sit here with with people and they're like oh why do you do that why and I'm like well you do the same [bleep] you just don't do it you just don't do it the I'm doing it. You know what I'm saying?

34:14 It's But it's like, you know, we without that patience to come to that point, it's just this constant divide. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And that's why it was imperative for me to create this platform to be able to bridge the gap between what's considered weird and what's ordinary. Yeah. That's why it's weird orary. Yeah. But also like I I also in this note man like I I was so happy to see your space, your podcast space, but also like someone from Albany, man. Like someone from our area like I do feel like something's in the water over here. Not even that Albany needs to have its, you know, moment in the sun, but just like there's incredible people out there that, you know, you give us a platform like we and we're all going to champion someone that has this. Like I've already seen you gaining so much traction with this podcast. It's like because people obviously people want to come up and talk and be interviewed but it's also just like damn he's from Albany like I know he grew up where I grew up you know what I mean he he we can relate to things on a certain level and you know when you do take this far it's like man like man I'm from that area like you know what I mean like I'm I'm I I I know those neighborhoods I know those stomping grounds even though you know Niski is connected I mean Niski and connectity are super different but like we're all from the 518 and we all I think we're yearning to see you know someone make it. Someone get out of here and not even just get out of here, but bring light to it and just make it and uh you know, bring whatever you're going to bring to the world, but be from here.

35:43 You know what I mean? Like I love to see that, man. Yeah. You know what I mean? And I want, bro, like you said, there's so many there's so many incredible minds. This is this is society is a vast ocean of of of intelligence. You know what I'm saying? And there's so much to learn from the people here. And I that's why I love doing this and that's why I want so badly to be able to push the bro I push this like the way I grind with this [bleep] I feel like I I I take inspiration from like Lil Wayne during his mixtape. That era is different. That [bleep] was just dropping dropping dropping dropping, hopping on everybody's track, everything just making their songs his own. Like you have a hit single, Lil Wayne hops on that [bleep] and suddenly there's competition. I was just talking to my friend, he had sent me there's a dope dude on Instagram. I don't know if you've seen him, but he just like he's like song 76 of the Lil Wayne Things That You Forgot from This Era and he was playing the ignorance shiver verse. And I'm just like, bro, I don't even think of the original song. And that's Jay-Z and be I don't even I don't want to say I don't care about the original song. It's Jay-Z BC. But it's like I don't think of that song. I think about the Drake and Lil Wayne and I'll take vacations. I like Bro, listen. Whezzy just bro he he brought a different level of creativity and imagination and he there was a necessity for free music for free enlightenment essentially you know what I'm saying and you know you got people that [bleep] like real fans like they appreciate that Lil Wayne over the commercial Lil Wayne yeah and and the thing about you know music and I it's it's very similar to how I see like love like no matter what Wayne does now and it it I don't want to say that cuz it can sound so like he can

37:37 do anything. I'm not going to let him get away with anything but that musically like whatever he does now he can put out the most [bleep] thing ever. He's still going to be so in my like I just have so much reverence for him for what he did from say ' 05 to 2009 like that was it was a run bro it was a run and I say love because like I don't necessarily believe like and this is 31y old me I might feel different at 34 44 whatever like I don't believe that like the love is any different if you love someone hard for a year a year and a half I don't think that's any different than a obviously a lifetime could be a lifetime of love notion but if you love someone deep you you listen to the way people talk about Tupac like some people like may have knew him for like 3 months but they love that [bleep] like love him to the point where 30 years later they're still getting choked up when they talk about certain memories but it's like how how how long do you know him doesn't matter how how but you in the moment you felt that you were amongst the presence of someone and you felt the depth to this person and you ultimately that is love.

38:47 That's a that's a heart expanding love like you know and it's just like each one like one one thing that Tupac said he's like I may not be able to change the world but I can provide the spark in somebody who will. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And it's like you really take those gems. I mean like yo that mixtape run like the way he approached that [bleep] like that's that's with me. I'm like, "Yo, attack, attack, attack." You know what I'm saying? Just give it, you know what I mean? [bleep] it. You know what I'm saying? And and you know, [bleep] for better or for worse, people were always talking about him. You know what I'm saying? And I'm like, yo, [bleep] it. That's how that's how it's going to be. I'm going make sure that I'm on these [bleep] minds for better or for worse. You know what I'm saying? People got to know the brilliance that exists in their backyard. You know what I'm saying? Like it ain't, you know, we we value these people that we can't touch when there's so much enlightenment, you know what I mean? Right there. You know what I mean? I mean, bro, like you you dead ass went to Yale. Yeah.

39:52 You know what I'm saying? I mean, like, I don't get to meet [bleep] like that. You know what I'm saying? I don't You know, I remember when I lived in when I lived in [bleep] uh I lived in Maryland. I was working at this [bleep] I was working at this grocery store and this person came in with a Harvard hoodie. I'm like, "You went to Harvard?" She was like, "Yeah." I'm like, "God damn, that's amazing to me, bro. It's so dope actually being in that spot." Like, it's it's really like um cuz I was thinking the same thing. Like I was at first I was almost like downplaying and not trying to whatever is in my background that I was kind of like not trying to brag about it or whatever. and just like you know like almost like down like like uh not even downplaying is the right word but just like playing like being small in ways like playing it small and like it's like you shouldn't just be like I'm going to Yale to everybody but like you shouldn't play it small like be proud when somebody asks you but you get there and you realize like it's a very it was a very weird time in life in a very like weird space in ways but there's also so many dope things and so many dope people and so a lot of us are there there's a big black Yale community that's very dope and that you know that has um you know obviously this network but it's not always about just the network. It's just like going there and seeing that it's like so dope and it was always so interesting to me because Yale is uh like this predominantly white space but it's also like incredibly diverse. So like going from Sacred Heart to Yale, it's it's connected to Albany length.

41:19 It's 30 minutes away 16 17 miles. But Sacred Heart is closed gated community, Catholic, just very white, you know what I mean? And like if you're a person of color there, you kind of like play a sport. You kind of do. I remember quitting football after my sophomore year and being like, damn. Like what am I gonna do out here? Like like I'm gonna be the only like you know what I mean? just be like the only one not really playing a sport with that. And then I get to it and I'm like this is amazing. Like I get to wake up at 8 like damn I had to wake up at 5:00. I love that. And then I got to Yale and and to me like Sacred Heart was a very white space just through and through. And I I love my university and the the bonds I made there with, you know, my friends and what I just have a love for that space for my undergrad experience. And I get to Yale and it's like every day you can talk to somebody with a different accent from across the world. This person's from Yugoslavia, this person's from Korea, this person's from Jamaica, this person's from uh Ukraine. Like, I'm not kidding you, every day. And the Neil is so open where it kind of flows throughout the city. So, just picture this Albany just kind of like just people from all across the world and kind of people like from the age range is really like 18 to people in their 50s cuz grad school also opens itself up to people being in their 30s. uh you know professors you know being older but people being I was there when I was 23 so it just it does a lot to a young mind too whereas you really um you I already had this mind that was prone to just these infinite possibilities but it it only expands and you only come to see that like um this this is way I guess I saw this in retrospect um like I I think that you you come to

43:12 see that like this is I I never felt that like uh I don't know like I never felt that this was like a not not diverse space. I I would get that people would say that's a lot like this is a very white space and I think institutionally is it all which is that's where the power is but I was also just like I look around and see people from all over the world here and but what's cool as well is like my second year there I lived with my first year there I live with two black women which was really dope and they didn't even go to Yale they were just in New Haven one studied at Yale uh to be a doctor and then my second year there I lived with two brothers that went to my school Divinity School and there were two Morehouse brothers So you come to realize that people accredit are uh say it's a white space because they come from these H.B.CU which is also super dope in terms of perception. It's like n this is this is super white to me because it's like this is uh this is not just you know I mean the diaspora everywhere whereas you coming from Morehouse you're coming from Howard you're coming that's that's a black space you know what I mean? Um, so I don't know. I appreciated the diversity in that sense, you know what I mean? I think there other ways where I either straight up struggled or straight up wasn't just feeling it. Um, but I I I really like appreciated my time at and and realize I was young. Realize I was like it's very weird to like cuz I felt old at 23. So [snorts] if you're feeling old, you realize that I'm young cuz I'm around like older people. Um, but realized I was young. Realized I had like I don't want to say time to waste, but I did, you know, waste time, but I also lived in the moment and had a lot of beautiful experiences just in that outside of the sale just New Haven and whatnot. Um, but realized I was like, damn, there's a lot I can do like right now in the moment.

45:07 And so, yeah, it was it was a gorgeous time like using that as a springboard, taking your resume and just your work ethic and everything into consideration. Uh we spoke earlier uh briefly about Da Vinci's recent statements and his his recent virality and here's the thing like I get what he was trying to say and I think everyone does but just the way it came out it's like oh my god but see here's the thing so okay so you were born in America I was but your your root like you're African right what part of Africa is your family Nigerian Yeah, fair enough. I'm predominantly Nigerian myself. That's amazing. That's incredible. And uh so there's a different like there there is a different mentality. Oh yeah. From you know what I mean from from from being black from being a black individual from Africa rooted in those values as opposed to being Africanamean. You know what I'm saying?

46:08 But being a black man, you know what I mean? born in America but reared within roots from the motherland. How do your values differ from somebody reared within American traditionality? For sure. And honestly, I'm not even trying to like cop a plea. I'm still trying to figure these things out. I think there are like literal definite differences and different values. Like I I literally I'll never forget like not to put it on another but like Nip Hustle once talking about like his his family like his experience in Africa and like everyone every day you gather around a table and that was something I just did all my life when I thought was normal but also like I say I'm still trying to figure it out because like for for so much in my life like obviously [clears throat] at home is just home it's like water you're there. Um, but like I I do and right now speaking like I do identify with the black American experience so much and I I I grew up in it. I see myself as that. But I also give space to know when I should not be speaking. Like that's not my experience. That's not my uh just in terms of like I can't always speak from the experience of someone that was that doesn't have parents from Nigeria that you know is more connected to the black American experience. I give space to know that's not my space. But I I would say the the difference to me in my households.

47:47 You see, I have to think about this. You know, I I really grew up like I I really don't know what it's like to to not be connected to my country. Okay? you know, and even in the ways I do know it's not to be connected to my country, it's it's it's it's because I I hear um like like I I I don't know my language and that that that runs deep and that like if if somebody's calling back when we had house phones and whatnot, somebody's calling my phone and they're, you know, like you know, saying how are you in my language and it's almost this like ominous omnous or uh ominous this kind of I can say oang but then I can't go further than that and you know they're going to get on you but you know I know the disconnect in that way but I always knew I was Nigerian. I always knew I was connected and I don't know what it means to to not be rooted in I guess a country or or the motherland I should say because I I don't know like I ask you I know you have your your roots are Nigerian but are you black American as well?

48:54 Yeah. Right. I've never been to Africa. My I've never like I never I didn't come from a household that celebrated these roots. It was just straight up like American. Right. But that but do you do you root yourself in America? Like do you feel disconnected from Africa at all? Is there at this point? Like I I feel a spiritual connection. You know what I'm saying? But I I I definitely want to further that by going there eventually and really understanding that culture by immersing myself in it. Like so because I did my ancestry and I know that connection exists, I I've allowed myself to become more spiritually aligned, right? But uh you know, I don't think that connection can fully come into fruition until I go there. Yeah. And I I I agree cuz even me going there was like there was a there was a deeper spiritual connection and it's just like the best way I can describe it is I went there at 6, I went there at 20. No, I'm sorry. I went there at 6, I went there at 25, and I went there at 28. And every single time I went, specifically 6 and 25, there's just this embrace, this hug.

50:08 Mhm. this hug from the moment the time I went 3 years ago when I was 28 was the first time like my brother beneath me I'm one of six okay he didn't come but my entire family did other than that um other than my mom so my dad's side my stepmom I my my dad and and uh it was like my sister I she had been there but I had never been there with her she had been a few times with her mom who's my stepmom and I remember we just get outside in the airport in Abuja and she goes goes, and I'm thinking this, but just the way she said, I was like, "Don't you just love that Nigerian air?" And I knew exactly what she meant. It's it's a different smell, [snorts] but it's also like a different air that you're breathing. It's a different crisp. It's a different and it very much feels from the inside out. It feels like I'm home. It feels like this is where these are my people. This is where I'm from. This is where so I I I definitely and and Yale helped me realize this because I I very much in those kind of waning college years into grad school became uh just very into the diaspora and just pan-African like we're all from Africa in some way or another in terms of us melanated people but just melanated folks specifically.

51:21 So I very much became into like um we're disconnected somehow including myself. Um, but I I know, you know, I'm I'm not as disconnect and I don't even really say as because I don't it's not my place to say like you're disconnected from Africa. That's literally not my place and it's not my um exper I can't speak on that because it's not my experience. And I and like you said, you you gave yourself space and you you gave me the grace to say it. Like I do feel a spiritual disconnection, but it's not for me to say, "Oh, you're disconnected from Africa." Yeah. 100%. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And it's like it's just like the way that I the way that I treat my my the way that I value my presence and my ability like it's cuz I know people that come from there, they work hard. Yeah. They grind. Yeah. And it's like I feel that vitality now. You know what I mean? It's like I know like how important it is to be somebody to be black in America. You gotta really [bleep] grind. You really [bleep] do like this [bleep] And one thing Da Vinci said and it's like it's it's easy to because we have these first world problems.

52:36 Yeah. You know what I'm saying? That's another thing. And yes, there is this level of entitlement that does that that doesn't make us feel like we have to go as hard. There's this there is this ideology that you know what I mean? A lot of things will just be handed to us. And I can say that from experience. I felt like I was I lived within this delusion that success would just come to me. You know what I'm saying? That's not a reality. That's not a reality. You know what I mean? That's not a reality. And I want to talk about the [bleep] because it's like you know your parents being from Africa like I'm sure like like I said like they looking at your resume like there there was some grit that was instilled in you. You know what I And I want to just understand like how that cuz you have the duality between being raised by people from the motherland and then you also have that American experience being born into it. So I guess like explain your explain your perception of being human uh being reared within within these within these dualities. You know, that's such a perfect way to ask it too to your experience of being human.

53:49 I definitely think like my childhood, my parents in particular, my father uh he passed away earlier this year. Where are the soul? Absolutely. I appreciate that. He was super hard on us. Like it was it was very much the norm to like at age five, turn that off, read a book, and for all my life, read a book. And I I was never actually reading books. Like I mean I read books when I was young but like he was very like read a book and then very um just like very academic very like and my grades weren't always on point when grades became a thing. I guess that's like middle school like you know I was not doing well and like B's weren't acceptable like and but for me I think he he kind of I was always kind of wedged between these two brothers that were like a students with with ease that you know your brothers they don't have to study they just got it. Um, but yeah, my dad was the the disciplinarian. My dad was super hard. He was never a loud man in terms of like just his I guess presence and like there's a lot of just loud Nigerian people in there. You know, I'm waking up to my mom's on the phone or my stepmom saying just loud people. My dad's not loud in that, but he would yell and that's where his loudness would come from. Um but yeah, he was he was very uh very hardworking in terms of I think you learn a lot not from what your parents say um but what they do. And my dad was up every day before 5:00 a.m. kind of going to work. He worked in the time in Phoenix as a naturopath. So kind of a natural medicine doctor, you know, was working on his MD and then got his MD.

55:27 And then when we moved to Albany, uh, he he became a respiratory therapist in Albany Med. Um, and these things just never made sense to me in terms of our financial situation cuz we were always kind of broke. I never say poor work cuz, you know, just the mindset of that, but we never had money like that. We were always living in apartments all my life. All my life on my dad's side. Um, until I was out of the house in grad school and, you know, I'm I'm renting places myself. And so I don't know, my dad, he had this incredibly hard work ethic, but we never had the financial means. And I think like in a world that is so capitalistic and that you do want and when you're a black kid in a nisuna, you you kind of are embarrassed to live in these apartments, especially when you're like, but my dad's putting on the lab coat and he's kind of going to be uh a doctor, you know, when I have it. But I I also like I when I say like my dad, you know, I learned a lot more from seeing him just work and work hard and you know go out and go to work every day. Uh and I mean like physically I saw the toll it took on him. He was waking us up some days. Uh some of my earliest memories are like him waking us up and when we were living in Phoenix that you know the sun's not even out. it's 4:00 a.m. so he can drop us off at a babysitter on a Saturday so he can go to work and then he picks us up at 6:00 7:00 p.m. and you know these kind of things. But um you know I say all that to say my dad was a big like kind of preaching kind of you know don't do that do this you know even like close your mouth like very disciplinarian very and and I actually appreciate it a lot more now even if it takes some of the the the quote unquote like negative things you know some of the things you need therapy for. uh just being in a space where I've worked as a teacher, even working in a

57:17 restaurant right now, like you you don't kids don't just come out like ready to go. They need dis you need to tell your kids how to act at a restaurant. You need to just discipline your kids. I love the segment that you have with, you know, fathers and I don't know if you do it with mothers as well, but like do believe in whooping your kids and just what people have to say in that. Like I was definitely disciplined in that way. Maybe we're all, but I I think kids need to be told like I was told like if you go over to one of our uncle's houses, you know, one of his friends, you don't grab a glass, you know, you ask, you know, I was even raised in like certain daycarees and environments where it was like yes, please, no, ma'am. Like these kind of things. Um, to my mom's side, she was and we saw her less. They split when I was two, you know, before I can even remember. And uh my mom was always the cooler one, the very uh not that she wasn't strict, but not strict one. Um very kind of more liberal parent, you know, definitely Nigerian to the core, but um my mom's a seeker and a searcher and she kind of put me on to spirituality in a lot of ways. And uh my mom was always the the uh the business motivated one. Like when I was eight, she opened up an assisted living home.

58:32 So, I grew up around old people. I think that informs my demeanor and my So, I saw my mom and I think other than maybe opening a restaurant or running a restaurant, assisted living is the hardest thing you can do. Yeah. And so, and it's a big thing in Phoenix in Arizona. There's a lot of old people. So, I grew up in homes like like houses just filled with old people. But my mom always instilled in me like when my dad was teaching me, you know, this is a perfect example like when I went to college, my parents are my dad is pray pray and they were big on just meetings before things like we're meeting as a family even though they were split. So we we're in our house in the apartment in Iskuna and uh you know I'm going off to college. They're both going to drop me off. My dad gives me a Bible and it's like this is the most important thing you're going to need. Like when you get down on yourself, just open this book up, look in here. And my mom gave me this like key, this like almost just like just gold little key that's like a not a real key, you know what I mean? Like a like a master key.

59:38 And she goes, "This is what you need. This is, you know, this key. If you put your mind to it, um [snorts] you can do it. this the master key system kind of the law of attraction. I didn't know anything about this but years later you know a couple years later I was getting into all this stuff and but that's a duality of my parents. My mom is more of a um spiritual not to say my dad's not spiritual but sounds like he's more rooted in religion. He is more rooted but my dad you know is a very spiritual per like my dad gifted me some spiritual books on my 21st birthday. He towards the end of his life he would have these conversations where I don't know he he had Parkinson's so he's it does get to your brain and you hallucinate but like I think there's something to these things that are not always just hallucinations you know I I think there's like I would listen to my dad and hear about the things he saw and I'm like he's not lying like can you give me an example like for one time he told me that uh he was uh cuz I I wasn't always living here. I was living in Phoenix, but I came back when he got really sick. And so, and I was hearing he was having these outbursts. And so, when I first got back here in like late November, early December last year, he was in the hospital. I was I literally thought he was going to may maybe pass I was told to get here before, you know, maybe he's going to pass away. Um, thankfully, he he he he was cured at that point. He was in the hospital for 2 weeks. And you know, I think that family has a lot to do with it. His family was around him, so he he he was uh able to kind of, you know, be healed and whatnot and get out for the time being, but he would have these hallucinations at home at night where he's thinking like either people

1:01:26 are breaking into the house or he's seeing things. And I just one day was like, "Dad, what do you mean you're like seeing these things?" And one time he told me he saw a uh I like a little like mouse type creature or something like that. And he would tell me he would see these like little like uh just like these dancing like uh almost like like African little things that he's dancing that are dancing. He's like I haven't seen that since my childhood. And I don't know if I'm even making sense right now, but the fact that he was saying that means that like he probably saw these back in Nigeria when he was a kid. And he's and I was talking to him. I'm like, "Dad, I don't I don't disbelieve you." And he was like, "No, like when you and I think that people just like how they say babies can see, you know, angels in the sky or I think that people that are on the verge of death probably see some shit." And um I I I just think that uh you know when it comes to those things, we're so quick to disregard them. I think it's a fear in us.

1:02:34 We're like, "Oh, that can't be true." Um but the fact that he's saying these things, I I don't think they're they're not true. And the fact that, you know, he's nearing his death and he's saying these things, um you know, I don't think that they're not true cuz I I don't think that this is all life is. I think that we're probably going somewhere. And I think that, you know, even to this point, in another note, often as children, we do see things that we can't explain and we maybe we try to explain them or maybe we just never explain them, but we know to our core that happened, that was true, and we just uh but we fall into the socialism of the world, like these social things that we just never bring that up again. Um but it's not to say they weren't true or they didn't happen. Yeah. I mean, it's like he's nearing death, but like he's seeing things from the be beginning of his life that are resonating more with him now. That's that's actually that's really fascinating.

1:03:34 Yeah. And I think it's like it's it's if you live your whole life in your humanness seeing through the eyes of the world, if you see something that is not of this world, you're it's probably going to invoke some fear and it's probably going to be viewed as an hallucination. Um but I Nas has this beautiful and I remember this girl just saying to me, I think babies see angels around us like you know like you're you're really at the threshold there. You know what I mean? Like it's like, you know, these babies are just coming from just like another universe entirely. You know what I mean? And it's like when you're It's like when you're dying, like you're you're at a similar threshold. It's I can't quite explain it, but it's a return, too. It's a return. You hear about people's last breaths and them seeing things or seeing a light or seeing these things or even near-death experiences. You get this you get this you get this burst of euphoria. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1:04:35 And I you know I know you've mentioned your job as well, but when you like work with like I I literally grew up around old people like in my mom's so like I by the time I got to my 20s I was working in uh assisted living homes and you're like you you're you're wiping someone's ass, you're giving them a shower. Like these are the things you do to babies. So there is a sort of return even in the humanness sense like the bodily sense like these people can't I don't even want to say the it sounds you know what I mean like ages but like you they you can't take care of yourself when you're old and uh you know our country I don't know I know some countries do it better but our country doesn't do the best job of protecting the or just honoring the elderly you know what do you think that is I think we we're young we're young as a We place such a value on youth and like [snorts] ability ability and the and even like our Hollywood the movie star the young James Dean type the we have a die young attitude.

1:05:40 Um we have a fascination with like I know she's not American but like kind of the Amy Winehouse or you know the Jane from Breaking Bad that kind of feminist archetype. and then the masculine and James Dean kind of die young. But I I I think we don't, you know, it's also we're not a reflective culture. When you've been at your culture as long as Ethiopia has or China has, like these are thousand-year-old cultures there. There's a lot more ability to be reflective and to know, oh, the elderly probably have some wisdom to teach us. um we shouldn't shun them away or even like we shouldn't like just value like youth is a fleeting thing. Um so they're not going to put too much stake into it. Like have it and enjoy it while it's here, but it's that's not all life has to offer. But when you're a young person, you you value youth so much and you value maybe you identify with your looks so much or your your beauty or even your intelligence from a youthful intellectual standpoint.

1:06:47 Whereas like when you're older, you you really see the important things are damn the time I spent with my family or the the things I did with my life. And I think a culture is very much like a person in that sense where uh you can only value these things when you have the time and the the years to reflect on that. So a lot of our problems just come from being super young. Like we're we're super young. Even when I think about like the thing like I'm a big sports person and they'll be like, "Oh, back in the day this was that was 1965. There's people that was 60 years ago. Like that's not too long ago, you know what I mean? So, but we think of it as like, oh my god, that's ancient, you know? But it's that's right around the corner. I mean, I'll listen to like I remember listening to a song by Meek Mill. It came out in like 2012 and this one girl I was with at the time. She's like, "That song is so old." I'm like, "No, it's not. It's really not that.

1:07:46 It's not that old." And I was I was in these streets at that time. Yeah. You know, I mean, but it's just it's just this perception, you know what I mean? how we how we view time and [bleep] There's just these just these countless fallacies. It's it's it's wild. Time is a time is a strange thing, but we constantly tell ourselves there's not enough time, but like as long as you're present, you realize there really is. There is. Yeah. And we constantly tell ourselves kind of the universe of that. We have all the time in the world. We we tell our like I love that you just did this. You just got started and did it. You're like, I'm not going to start tomorrow. I'm starting right now cuz you never freaking know what can happen. That's a [bleep] fact. You never freaking know. So, and I I'm I'm I'm one to talk cuz I've procrastinated so many things in my life. But yeah, I I think two things with presence, like when you're really present with something, you're going to remember it a lot better cuz you were there in the moment. And then, yeah, presence just elongates so much time. I think about like September 11th was a month ago, but I'm like that feels like a long time ago to me like because I I've just had these moments of presence and so much has happened in between. But you know, if I was just kind of and and you know just you know on this rat race and not taking time out to be meditative and present, you know, it would feel like damn that just happened. And how many times in my life have I been like damn that was three months ago like that feels like it just happened.

1:09:11 Type [bleep] you know. Yeah. Let me ask you, given the wisdom you have, you're a wise man. I appreciate that. Um, and just just the the fortitude, the resilience, you know what I mean, of of your parents, like what did the adults around you teach you about handling pain? M that's a great question. You know, when you say when you put it like that too, I don't even think of my parents first of all. I I think of like coaches. Okay. Yeah. Like I I I definitely pain was taught to be on a sport sense like this is temporary. Like there's things that can be for Yeah. The whole pain is temporary. Pride is forever. There's things that last longer than your momentary pain. Uh, you know, I was also young kind of privy to domestic violence and things like earliest memories and you know, maybe even not even seeing it but like kind of hearing it.

1:10:19 Oh, within your household. Within my household. Oh [bleep] Really? Yeah. So I I think that's also like that informs pain and that maybe informs like you endure it but you leave at a point. I you know so I I think that like And then there's the the fact that like adults around me when I was, you know, kind of coming of age, adolescent wise, a lot of I laugh, but a lot of them were white adults. So I I think they were doing these things that we might call micro microaggressions today and kind of inflicting pain on you, but you were kind of told to to deal with it. How so? Well, you know, I I I could see that things were all my friends are 13, but they are seen as 13year-olds, and I'm kind of seen as the one that's like can be treated like a grown man in this scenario. Or, you know, these teachers, you know, I can't articulate it cuz they have all the power. or you know, I'm not doing that well in school. But I feel like part of my experience with this teacher just stems from racism. And I think that's one of the toughest things about racism is like you can't always explain that [bleep] And I like people that can we we we really champion them because damn, you just articulated something that I thought was so inarticulate. whether it's Tony Morrison or James Baldwin or um you know just people in I I love the way Van Lean will break down things you know people in our culture. So, uh, but I I think that like when it comes to pain in adults, I think that I had to unlearn as an adult like certain things that are okay, certain things that are not okay. And then to just identify pain like not all things are like this this painful thing and that that comes from

1:12:14 my sports background like this this too shall pass. Like this this is really shitty right now, but this this will pass. And I I think that takes time because I think in my early 20s and I'm I'm very interested in hearing your response because I think as black men and as very wise people like I I didn't even know that I kind of fell into this way of thinking. But I uh I didn't know I would live to be 31. I grew up in Niski, bro. Like I not to say it wasn't dangerous to be black and nisky, but I I wasn't on I I didn't grow up in Albany, you know what I mean? I wasn't walking around and um and I I don't even like the way that sounds like that's a dangerous part. That's this that cuz there's times where I felt just unsafe being black and whiskey and there's not just Albony is not just this craze place even though there is some wild [bleep] going on even today. Yeah. Um, but I I I very much um, yeah, I very much think that like, you know, I was on this slight road to self-destruction at 24 and 25 and in ways 26 I was getting out of it, but I spent years of 27 and 28 kind of rebuilding myself back up be and I think a lot of that comes from like, you know, we talked about Tupac earlier. He died at 25 and I had such an admiration for had more of an admiration for Biggie when I was a kid. I I really feel an admiration for Tupac, but I love these guys and they were dying young. And what does [clears throat] that do to you?

1:13:52 What did the generation before they were of the generation that not really them, but like they I guess the generation right before them saw Malcolm X and Dr. King both eye at 39. These things have an effect on us. you know that they it's like they they say the good die young and there's also this this quote from the Dark Knight they say um I am paraphrasing but it's like uh you can uh die and be a hero or long or live long enough to see yourself become the villain and it's like I've been I I heard that in a old in older Kanye West song by Jay-Z uh so and uh I just been I remember like driving home one night and I I just I I've rewinded that line back and I would just kind of just stink and I'm like what what do I want? You know what I mean? And it's like is that what is that is that the cosmic force? Is that is that the cosmos speaking? These people like that that die young like were they meant to die heroes? like if they lived, would we still hold them in that regard? You know what I'm saying?

1:15:04 Absolutely. I I I I I give a lot of thought to that cuz I'm like even was it this, you know, cuz I I think we're we often also kind of mythologize like, oh, they were just meant to die. And in ways we don't know, so you don't want to, but it's like sometimes people die over [bleep] Like [bleep] But at the same time, it's like they're they're so special to us, unfortunately, because they died young. They only get left us with this really, you know, just not a lot of time. I can't think of the right word, but so it's like everything they did was special. And like I said, I I I Biggie was probably my first like favorite rapper. And I only knew Biggie through death. [snorts] I I I I was two when Biggie died. So I never knew Biggie when he was alive. I only knew this man through him being somebody that was kind of speaking to me from the other side. And a thing that I always found interesting was these [bleep] were always talking about dying.

1:16:03 Yes, they were like like ready to die, life after death. And then Tupac was always talking about dying and then these [bleep] ended up dying. What the [bleep] You know what I'm saying? I remember being a kid thinking about this [bleep] You know what I'm saying? And I mean I don't I don't know like the way I look at death cuz I lost both my parents by the time I was 22. I'm super sorry to hear that. And thank you. And uh the way I look at it like like like death doesn't death doesn't actually exist. Only life does because our physical forms expire but our spirits are eternal. You know what I'm saying? And I'm like and I'm like, you know, it's just it's like holding on to that to that that spirit, that intangible thing. It's like it's just like you can do these people can live however however you you can manifest them into whatever. Yeah. Within within within your mind through through through their spirit. It's like you know they're living it's like your spirit lives within this abstraction that it's up to us to shape.

1:17:10 You know what I'm saying? almost like does that make cuz when I think in real time like that I kind of like can like tangle myself you know you know like when you say abstraction that it's up to us to shape it it it it like it's like a synthesis like I I feel it you know it's like this like I don't know the right but it's like almost like this like uh I I feel that and it's like an abstraction is there's no shape to it. That's what I'm saying. And we do do that. We do like people can say this about this and this and I was even having this thought this morning related but not related like the way people ride for people 30 particularly about those two 30 years later C's will ride for Biggie that was his friend but that was a special person so he's going to shape him in the way he he experienced you know and shape him in the way he wants us to experience but you know I I I I'm not all the I and I I completely agree like death is not the end of this actually. Death is death is an illusion in so many ways and it's the ultimate illusion. Um you know but I'm still wrapped in this humanness where I'm like I'm definitely you know not not afraid to die. I think I'm less maybe than most. But like I also don't uh don't know what the hour will hold like what I'll do in the hour when it comes.

1:18:33 You know what I mean? And I I don't spend a lot of time thinking about that because I'm, you know, I feel like I have so much to do while on earth um in the physical sense. Um but yeah, I I definitely I know in my core that this spirit is really what we have. Yeah. Yeah. And is really not only who we are, but that's that's the one of everything. So we should probably live in ways to enhance that more, you know. Yeah. you know, and I uh I don't know. I've been thinking so much lately. Like I'm definitely not afraid to die because I know like on the other side is where we can truly live. You know what I'm saying? And um you know because you don't know what the future can hold. And it's it's like you want to die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become a villain. And it's just like I've I've been I've lived within that duality of evil and whatnot. And I've been able to come out of the other side of it. But I'm just like, I don't know. I mean, I just constantly think about that. I mean, because I can't help but think about the legacy that I want to leave. Mhm. And that's ego driven 100%.

1:19:48 And it's just like I come into contact with people and I'm like, I just I just want them to remember me as this. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So much to the point where I'm like it just like getting too close to people being here too long. It just like allows yourself to unravel just so much humanity and it's not always pretty. And I've been in that ugliness. I've lived in that ugly. You know what I mean? And I'm just like I don't know where else it can go. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like I don't you know what I mean? It's it's it's wild. Do you believe that there's like a consequences for what we do on earth or even like a type of justice or like consequences in the good sense like karma in the the afterlife? I definitely believe in karma. Yeah. I' I've felt karma like a [bleep] I've seen karma hit ma. Yeah. Do you believe it in the afterlife? So you're going to kind of live and not even I don't cuz sometimes you bring heaven and hell into it and it just becomes this kind of Catholic religious thing. And so I I like to leave those but I I I believe in it. And so uh I don't know sometimes I'm like I'm trying to clean up the ugliness I did. I'm trying to live in the best way I can.

1:21:00 And I think the only way to do that is to do it, you know. But I'm like I often I love hearing I love hearing about pe I think that's what led me to even like the theology on paper. I just love hearing about people's experiences and what they believe in terms of life and in terms of did like did you grow up with religion yourself or interestingly enough? No. Uh, I didn't. Dude, this is going to sound wild as hell, but bro, like my relationship with God came from came from experiencing the presence of Satan. You know what I'm saying? Understanding that evil is what led me to believe that there there's got to be more to There's got to. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I remember being in such a dark [bleep] place. I was suicidal and [bleep] And um my windows were closed. There's no fan. You know what I mean? I'm like literally thinking about that force of Satan. Yeah. I'm laying I'm laying in bed and I feel something blow on the nape of my neck. Interesting.

1:22:05 And these goosebumps just erect throughout my body and I'm just like, yo, this this [bleep] is real. That's so crazy. That's so crazy. Cuz even to bring it to and I it's like I don't want to bring it to religious sense but there's probably some story in some religious context where the nape of the neck was where it was tickled. You know what like that that's like prophetic and like even like hearing that is like wow like wow. You know what I'm saying bro? And and it's just like, you know, I've I've like it's like I don't know, man. It's like and it's like my mom became like religious like toward the end of her life. I love my mother to death and God rest her soul, but my mother had a lot of pain and she did not allow herself to really process. And my mother my mother my mother could be very evil. You know what I'm saying? And that's why and I remember and like my father would say so evil like people would constantly would always like you know what I mean that word or just like their their their vibe their energy. Yeah. And then you know people have called me that as well. Mhm.

1:23:10 And I'm like, you know, it's it's it's but it's but I just I I came to learn like you have to overcome these obstacles in order to appreciate paradise. Like like being tested by the devil is necessary in order to understand the magnitude of your faith to God. You know what I'm saying? Like that that's that that that's a necessary presence for sure. And for so long I I I I believed and this is old theological belief. I'm like, I believe that the forces of God and Satan work hand in hand because you need to be tested by the adversity of Satan in order to understand, you know, how faithful you are to God. Yeah. The story of Job. The story of Job. You know what I'm saying? And uh that [bleep] ruffles people, but I'm like, I'm not saying anything new. I think I think people get so scared when you bring up these things. Like I for instance, I didn't even know that. Like I was kind of brought up in this Catholic sense. Yeah. Yeah. And I I had this I always had a relationship with God. I was always just even if I wasn't praying, your imagination has a relationship with God. The imagination lends itself [clears throat] to that's nothing but like God is working in that.

1:24:19 But I I was like praying as a kid and all these things. And then uh I just remember around that time I was speaking of like grad school 23 24 25. I was like I wasn't consciously saying this but I was like there's no devil. How could there be a devil? Like there there's God. Like that's all there is. There's God. And then I was like just experiencing things where I'm like that seemed and it was almost like the ground was rising up in this red like Dante Inferno kind of way and I'm like no this is kind of not even kind of this is very evil and if you uh and it's so it's so present and if you're a person that is open to God you have to protect your peace and protect your energy because the other other side is so willing to test you. so willing to and I think everyone from Jesus himself to you know Job these prophets they to Moham like everyone probably went through to the prophet that's on the street walking right now in Albany as we have this conversation it's like that's that's willing to test you because like not only to test your faith but like the I heard this story one time in grad and grad school was a big time where it was like my education just came cuz I the reason I love theology in in college was because it was just like I love to learn for learning sake, not for grades. And then I ended up doing really well with my grades cuz that's how it goes. But in grad school, it was like kind of told to you to be the opposite and focus on those grades, focus on those, you know, or focus on rather than the learning of it. And I remember hearing the story that uh there is I forget the book it's in, but Jesus Jesus got mad at his disciples because the only one that recognized him as Christ as the anointed one was the demons. And I was like, it

1:26:09 was almost like at that point it was like, "Oh, that's all I need to hear. I could leave. That's that's what I came I I didn't leave." Like I ended up leaving grad school, but not after that. But it was like, "Damn, that was so profound. That that that sparked something in my mind that I'm going to learn more about." But that's what it's about. Like the the demons recognized Jesus before his people did. And there that's so deep to me. And that's that that's the story of kind of humanity in so many ways. Like like the why do the evil forces recognize the gifted one before the people. But you you'd be so many people in this world are are are so smart, so intelligent, so willing to, you know, well, this is the way this is like, no, Christ is right in front of you. Like there there's something beautiful right in front of you. God could be right in front of you, but you don't even recognize it as such. It's crazy to think there was there was not a Van Go before Van Go because now you see a Van Go paint, you're like, "Oh, that's Van." Like once you're hipped to Van Go, like I I didn't know Van Go until maybe, you know, my 20s. But then you you become hip and you're like, "Oh, that's a Van Go." But there wasn't paintings like that before. [clears throat] I mean, even like you mentioned the word da Vinci, but like Leonardo da Vinci, there wasn't him before him. Like that's insane, you know? And it's just like I mean, oh my god. But the I I literally forgot what I was about to say.

1:27:29 There's things that blew my mind though when you're when you're Oh yeah. His paintings were deemed ugly. That's insane. At the time, you know what I mean? Yeah. And it I you know and it's just like I I I wonder the people I I wonder if there were evil evil people at the time who saw these paintings and were like oh my god that's incredible. Yeah. [laughter] You know what I mean? I wonder you know that's my story. There's this movie called At Eternity's Gate and he's talking to a priest and the priest is like Vincent these are so ugly. Wow. And Vincent's like, "Oh, maybe my maybe my maybe my fans haven't been born yet." And like after Van Go leaves, the priest is just looking at him in disgust. Yeah. And now we're having this conversation and I'm just like what? That this just got my mind going and you know at Eternity's Gate. Yeah. I got to check that out. Uh [bleep] William Defoe as Van Go, which he's an incredible actor. Beautiful actor. That [bleep] man. He he does I never saw you know what I really want to see that I never saw you know talking about Christ and all this uh what was the movie that he portrayed Christ this Antichrist no was he in he was in the antichrist man he was in uh he was in like this uh p no it's like literally Scorsesei directed it in like 90 last temptation of Christ so that was a that was a book by some like uh this Greek guy it was a big book but he literally made but it was like and he was depicted as Christ and I think Christ had a girlfriend and all these things and so the movie the Catholic Church did a lot to just stifle the movie. Mhm.

1:29:05 But yeah, I mean Vent uh Defoe is he's a brilliant actor. Oh my god, he's a you know what another thing I was talking about with the friend like we don't have enough actors like a Defoe or a Steve Bushi or like a like normal looking people. Normal looking people aren't the most like attractive [bleep] in the world, but all these girls and guys that are acting nowadays, they have to be like these like models. And it's like why? You're like you're literally portraying real people. Yeah. But you don't look like regular Yeah. You look like a like the the the 1% of like the the whatever beauty standard there. It's weird. It's very weird. And it's very like it's it's I think it's I don't even think that it's like a plot. I just think it's capital driven. It's like but you don't realize like a lot of people just the story is realer if you just put like a defo in there or like a you know Michael K. Williams the scar like you know like and a person that looks like a real person.

1:30:09 Yeah. Like they they had Chris Hemsworth play like a computer hacker [laughter and clears throat] and it's like I I I don't like I believe he can like he's actually a good actor for sure. And it's like I'm not like I'm I didn't watch the film but they're like oh he he's too hunky to play this role. Like that was like an actual [bleep] uh review, right? And I'm like and it's just like what what the [bleep] I mean why the [bleep] would you even get like you know what I mean? Like you can't get somebody that looks regular. And I'm like, you know, but I just think I'm like I'm sure he played the role well, but it's just like you can't take him seriously because how he looks through his eyes, [laughter] you know? I I don't know, man. Hollywood is but but they need but they're think about who can sell this film and it's just it sucks to think that like reality humanity can't isn't enough to sell the film to sell the film. You know what I mean? It has to be vanity, you know? Verity can't do it. Van Varity can't do it. Vanity has to. You know, you know what I mean? And that's what we, you know, that's what we And even you mentioned in a movie like at Eternity's Gate is like so dope because it's like that is a you know mid-market to probably small film which I love.

1:31:21 Yeah. Indie. Yeah. Indie film. And it's like but most people are like have you seen I'm like no I haven't seen the new Marvel Spider-Man. Like I I I don't watch those and like I don't want to just say no shade cuz I guess I am throwing shade but like I haven't seen those but I I'm interested in seeing at Eternities G. interesting in seeing, you know, I just want the diversity in movies and I want to see these these films by like that star William Defo as Van Go. Like that sounds amazing. Yeah, bro. Seriously, you know, and and talking about all all of the religion and stuff like that like how has studying religion changed the way you make sense of your own suffering? Oh, that's a dude. Wow, that's a great question. Damn, it's very much informed it and I'm so grateful for it cuz when I was a few years away from studying it, I I I don't think I would have answered it like that. I I might have been more like nihilistic about things.

1:32:20 Interesting. But yeah, I I very much at the same time I was studying religion, I had had a bed like a a foundation of uh studying like Echarolei and Wayne Dyer and all these you just spiritual. So I was studying both at the same time and uh I always say if I never learned about sort of the law of attraction and the way the universe works and just love and all these things I don't even know if I would be here. I I I I might have you know just selfharmed or just actively put myself in a situation where I would not be the person before you or just like literally not be on this earth in this physical form. So uh but because I experienced situations even with psychedelic drugs that I've just so much love has flooded into me like it it's informed so much about love but in [snorts] terms of suffering it's it's great because the thing about studying these things is you really have to dive deep. It's different from studying like business where you know it's important to learn you know microeconomics these things you know portfolios but like you don't quite have to give yourself um but the humanities force you to give yourself so like suffering from the Buddhist perspective and suffering from the Christian perspective are very different how so well the Christian perspective is like there's this eccloical view. I can never pronounce it, but it's like E X E C C S T and then the rest of the word. It's forward looking. That's what it means.

1:34:06 It's the forward looking. So, my suffering is not in vain. This is happening so I could either help out humanity or I'll end up in heaven for this in some way. My suffering is not in vain. And it's uh it's not even in like maybe some Christian tenses have this in like a karmic you cause your suffering but most of the Christianities and it there's so many branches of Christianity it's it's the plural it happens you you tend to see your suffering in this Christlike way I I think you're I think people are really brought up to to view things like that and uh and so you sort of see your suffering as it bettering yourself for theuture. future either for heaven or just forwardlooking like I'm kind of made to get through this and Christ suffered so it's cis whereas like Buddhism is like life is suffering I don't think people realize Buddhaism can be bleak and life is suffering because of you know sort of uh either clinging this thing they call uh duka like uh grasping for things grasping for things that are impermanent grasping for um just all these things that there's naturally things that are going to change impermanence your beauty all these things are just grasping for like in the ego sense and so and then there's ways to overcome the suffering in Buddhism which I'm not all the way alert to just because I'm so kind of far removed from it but uh so Buddhism is like accepting the suffering like to to to the road to enlightenment is realizing life is suffering this life is fleeting and a big part of this life is you're going to get old, you're going to get sick, you're going to die. That's

1:35:54 that's those are inevitable and that the suffering entails all those things or those things entail suffering. Um, so for me, I think I just I I I really because I embedded myself into these studies and like was was very much like not sure what I like I knew I wanted to be a writer, but I not wasn't sure if I wanted to, you know, I didn't know I wanted to write films. I was kind of working on a novel at the time and I had experienced suffering in my life. I I had to kind of make it make sense in that way. And now in retrospect as I look I'm like damn I I have you know in ways I'll say like a leg up but not like leg up in terms of this college degree and all this but just the the the actual studies I did like these truths are tried and true for a reason. So like this suffering I I truly don't believe like my suffering was in vain and sometimes I feel like I need to be more assertive about that. just let a [bleep] know. Like I I didn't I didn't do all this in my life to, you know, kind of be talked down to at an Applebee's by an employee or by a customer, you know, or or just in in general in the world. Um, you know, and it's so crazy because that that's exactly how I live except like I I I still deal with interpersonal issues because I was raised the only child and I just I I was always so like withdrawn really, you know what I mean? And uh I don't deal with I don't deal I don't always deal with conflict. Well, me too. Do you do you do you attack it or do you kind of like I internalize it and it'll lead to me attacking it later.

1:37:39 Yeah, I'm the same. I can kind of shrink away in the moment and not be confrontation cuz it's also like you don't you don't like it happens and you're just going about your day and it's like what the [bleep] I didn't plan for this [bleep] bro. Yeah. And I I I just like and it's and when it comes off like that, it comes off as weird. And it's like the thing about it is like we all do that. You know what I'm saying? But we don't all like act on it. Like we don't all vomit something out that happened like a year ago. You know what I'm saying? We may still be upset about it. You know what I mean? That [bleep] may still like like like like like like like like claw at us, but we don't all like act on it. You know what I'm saying? and I'll have that and that'll that'll happen. But then I'll sit here and think like I didn't go through everything I went through to have this [bleep] right here talk to me like who the [bleep] you know what I mean? Right. Who the [bleep] is this? Like who the [bleep] are like you know and and it's like I just I I had to like take myself out of certain situations. You know what I mean? But I'm and I'm like I don't like the way that I did it. I despise the way that I did it but I it had to happen.

1:38:44 Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And uh you know, a a lot of relationships went that way. And and I and I I constantly drill in my head. I'm like, I I I need to be better moving forward. Yeah. Because it's like I have these conversations with people. I I'm able to tap into these connecting points. I find these parallels with everybody that I converse with. I ain't that different. You know what I'm saying? Nobody's that different. You know what I'm saying? That's the thing. Yeah. And it's just like it's just like it's just like constantly reminding yourself like, yo, bro, like you just got to be patient. You have to understand that you're worth speaking up in the moment. You know what I'm saying? You're you're worthy of that. You know what I mean? Do not don't when you don't, you give people power over you without realizing. Yeah. You let like it's it's uh one thing that I'm in this season of is like not tolerating disrespect. And I I I I really once you invite these lessons into you, you'll get the you'll get real life application of them. Do you feel like part of that comes from being a black man and not being able to like be your full angry self? Like you can't always be the angry like actual in the world. It's like very tough.

1:39:56 Is that's [bleep] That's a good That's a good question. Uh, I'll tell you what. Uh, when I find myself angry at my job where there's predominantly white people, I say, "Brad, [bleep] listen. [laughter] Don't do it. Don't do it." You know what I mean? Cuz you know what I'm saying? You know, cuz it's like racism is wrong, but like when you portray when you act a certain way, you give fuel to them to like to to like to to I guess like you give fuel to that flame and it's mass, right? So they don't It's like see like that's how Yeah. Like you know what I mean? When I was teaching these [bleep] were trying like I tell people all the time people when I'm like oh the kids I'm like the kids were kids. The kids are going to be kids. It's the [bleep] around that are like poking and poking and poking, man. It's like, yeah, [bleep] will poke the bear and get mad at the bear for being a bear, right? Right. You thought it was candy and now your teeth are rotted, you know what I mean?

1:40:58 [bleep] are you doing? You know, quite literally. Yeah. No, I can't like I I I got to [sighs] I got to stop. I just like I got an anger issue because I I I've always been afraid. My fear of conflict came from my fear to stand up to my mother. And that created a lot of issues within me unfortunately surrounding women. Uh not and not for nothing uh surrounding women of color. You know what I'm saying? And it's something that I had to acknowledge and it came to light in the worst ways. You know what I mean? In ways in which I was just being disrespectful as [bleep] Oh man. And behaving in ways that I'm like, I deserve to have my ass whooped right now. You know what I'm saying? I've never put my hands on anybody. I've never done anything like that. But like words are vicious. You know what I'm saying? Vicious. And I'm like this this this individual I'm portraying myself as. I'm like I wasn't was I really put here to be this. Like what the [bleep] would my I had so many issues with my mother from her not being able to acknowledge her pain and whatnot and her just kind of going off of what she was taught her instilling that that within me because that's what she knew.

1:42:12 You know what I'm saying? And it's like you take it I I take [bleep] so personally because I'm like if somebody who claims to love me treats me like this like what what the [bleep] Mhm. So it's like that manifests into like whatever conflict I have with people, I take it personally. Yeah. You know what I mean? And it's like it's not healthy. It's it's But the thing is on the road to like health and like actively being healthy, hearing you say that is like I hear therapy. Yeah. Like that like I I I this happens because of the things I had with my mother. I know this is not healthy. There's so much reflection. And I'm like, this is either someone that sat down, journaled, or like act like literally been in therapy or both. And it's like I wouldn't even be able to articulate some of how you just I would have never put something I uh do in the world because of my relationship with my father or my mother. Like because I haven't had the therapy or the quiet time to do that. So hearing you say that, it's like, well, you're actively like on a healing path and probably healed some [bleep] from before already. So it's like, damn. Like, damn. That's it's it's for me to you like that's dope. Like that's that's dope. And I I think that like honestly like this [bleep] is so spiralally and so like just we're just so tangled and like and I I just mean as a people not you just black white like and we always do black white but there's so many other people in the world. We're so [bleep] up from the world and largely our parents in ways that like um yeah any any form of healing I always like acknowledge like damn that's that's deep. Yeah, man. I mean, it's like you had to course through the ugliness of your internal jungle in order to come into the beauty.

1:44:02 And uh you know, this despicable version of myself came out for a reason. And uh Assad Shakur said, "Only the strong go crazy, the weak just go along." And it's like you have sometimes you have to step outside of yourself in order to find yourself. And when you do that, it manifests into what we deem as crazy. But it's like you come into that version of yourself. It it's it's not for no reason. [bleep] ain't just bugging for no reason. No. No. In the moment, [bleep] may not be able to articulate it, right? And the person on the outside looking in, they can't make sense of this [bleep] How do you make sense of lunacy? It doesn't make sense. Of what? Lunacy. Yeah. Yeah. How do you make sense of it? You know what I mean? But, you know, I'm like I came out of the other side of that so much more enlightened and so much more grounded and I have just a different level of appreciation for people because of that. Like being a devaluing people in the way that I did because I had a shitty connection with myself helped me understand just how important people are.

1:45:06 I'm you know what I'm saying? I'm like, yo, the gems that [bleep] have to offer, like everybody has a story. I need to give these pe I want to give these people a platform without people ultim bro it's like we're social creatures and being social creatures isol and isolating myself and being suicidal to the point where I'm just drinking and just going crazy. You know what I'm saying? Has made me realize just how valuable people are. Like I had so it was so hard for me to connect with people growing up. And it's like the things that are nothing worth anything comes easy. You know what I'm saying? And I'm like, it was so difficult for me because it was so [bleep] important. It was so valuable. You know what I mean? I'm f that [bleep] is finally coming into fruition now. Like that understanding is finally coming through now. You know what I'm saying? And bro, like I, you know, I I love people. I I die for humanity. It's crazy. Isn't that crazy? Because there was a point where you didn't they're like those [bleep] the problem. People are the problem. That's what I'm saying.

1:46:12 They're polluting everything. Got to a point where bro I was suicidal. I was homicide. I was bugging the [bleep] out. Exactly. And you know what I'm saying? And I and I'm like but but again it's like yo if you can plunge a hole to hell you can build a life. I was about to say that it's along everything we've been saying. It's like that exact the the the parallel of that thought or the op the whatever. It's like these are the these are what makes life life and like it it's I I feel the same way and people bug me out. They still get on but it's like man I really live for people and like if someone like I I genuinely love just have like I used to do Uber and have so much fun doing Uber just cuz it was talking to people and like I was you know smoking weed at the time and like you know having fun just doing that whole thing. This is right before in between college and grad school and probably didn't go in, you know, I was kind of smoked out, didn't really read books, [laughter] but like I was just having fun with people and just hearing people because people want to like talk. people really want to just uh kind of get their [bleep] off or just you know when you have a presence like yourself and you know I feel like I have this presence as well like people just are going to boom like just automatically come in and just start talking to you and and that's a that's a gift too being able to hold space and it probably comes from your isolation like it probably comes from you knowing yourself so well that like people feel comfortable around you people feel like uh safe around you.

1:47:42 I'm starting to I'm starting to make sense to that because I remember having a conversation with somebody in Maryland. This was after I went absolutely nuts in Vegas and this woman has a she had a kid. I think her kid at the time was like 17. She had a husband she'd been married to for over 20 years. And she told me we worked together. She told me that she did crack. She didn't even tell her husband that [bleep] She felt so comfortable telling me that [bleep] like in the past or she was current. Oh no, in the past and I was like I was mad comfortable around me and I appreciated that [bleep] You know what I'm saying? And but I you know and for the most reason I I for so long I didn't understand why until you just bring bring that up and I'm like you know people tell you you people tell you you got to get out of your head and stop thinking so much and I'm like there's levels to this [bleep] Yo yo you can't be in it's like your mind like your head like that's home but it's like you can't be in a gorophobe right like you can't be afraid to leave you know what I mean that's the problem you know no like go home you know what I mean reenter you know I mean reset get yourself right but don't be afraid to leave you know what I'm saying you know what I mean that that's a better message cuz so many People will be like, "Yo, man, you got to stop thinking so much and blah blah blah." And I'm like, "You [bleep] don't think enough." Yeah. You don't think enough.

1:49:13 You know what I'm saying? And I'm just like, you know, some of the greatest thinkers in history have have have had that same issue. And I'm just like, you you're not given a gift without having a curse to overcome. Oh my gosh. So, and it's just like there's only so much there's only so much like you can you can take in from from other people, you know what I mean? that that don't allow themselves to sit with themselves as much as you have. You know what I'm saying? Because you can see the method in the madness. They can't. You know what I mean? And you know, you can I can I can understand like, yeah, [bleep] care enough to give you their opinion, but I mean, like, if you tell a good idea to enough people, you'll start believing it's a bad idea. So, there's only so much stock you can invest in others despite the fact that we need others to thrive. That's an interesting parallel. It is. It is. It's just the van go of it. I mean, the the his art wasn't valued. It wasn't, you know, was and he I don't know if he did believe that or not, but I you know what I mean? I I don't think it's [sighs] he Yeah. Yeah. I I I I think that's fair cuz I It's like I'm I'm sitting here trying to answer that. I'm like, I'm not Van Go. What the [bleep] Right. Right. You know what I'm saying?

1:50:28 [laughter] That's a good point. I can assume right that he probably did feel that way. He did. I mean this is very human and I think like so much art like uh Moby Dick wasn't recognized in its time. It's like this I don't even think he lived to see the planet of the apes novel. I'm like you know how many people didn't even know that was a book. I didn't even know that was a book. But it makes sense that that's a book. Incredible book. My god that book is good. I read that [bleep] like a few summers ago. Oh my that [bleep] changed my life. That's the thing about like I'm reading like I'm really into the classics and I'm rereading Crime and Punishment for like the two point like two and a half time like I've read it all the way through and then I've read it or one and a I've read it halfway through and then I just started over because I have another copy at this place in New York. my other copies in Phoenix. And so I'm like I'm reading it and this is like the 1800s, you know, 19 and you forget how how you don't even realize first of all this dude is so people were so funny back then. You think like this humor is sort of a thing that sort of started with our generation or maybe the generation before. It's like nah people are funny and it's like my larger point is like the classics are classics for a reason. Like I would love to read Frankenstein. I've never read Frankenstein.

1:51:39 Never read it either. I I would love to read that. Let me tell you, did did you watch the new rendition, the latest rendition? No, but I do love Gary Mo del Toro. Even though I' I say that I've never actually seen a movie. You got to, bro. Shape of Water. You got I When Frankenstein came out, I watched that [bleep] twice. Really? That's a good movie. Shout out. I love Oscar Isaac. And I love him. Underrated actor. [bleep] So, he's in mad [bleep] too. He is. Shout out. That motherfucker's dope. Jacob Lordy should have won. He should have won best supporting actor. See, that's a dude that like because it almost works in his disservice that he's so like goodlooking and handsome. It's like this [bleep] can act. You know, you know what Oscar Isaac was in that [bleep] blew my mind. It was such a good movie. This movie Inside Lu and Davis with Garrett H. Yeah, I know. I never seen the film. Cohen brother. It was the first Cohen brother film I ever saw and I was like I still don't know what that movie was like. I don't want to say what it was about like but like what it was trying to say but it's like the struggle of an artist and it it's like very meta and I'm just like damn this is a deep dope movie. And he he he played it so well and I love movies and I was going to ask you this about something else but I love movies where you can like feel like the the cold coming through or the heat coming through and you can feel the New York City cold. Like I was going to ask you cuz you've lived in Vegas you said in the Maryland. How how much is like your like physical climate environment like affect you and like not just like your mental state but like your mood and your and your your your your time your your your mental outlook on life cuz it's so crazy because I remember being I I remember just being just saying like how much I hate the rain and like it don't I mean it rains here but it's not like we're in [bleep] Seattle.

1:53:33 You know what I mean? But it's like, you know, you just zero in on something so much that you hate. You know what I mean? Because you're almost you're in this bubble. I haven't really explored. Yeah. So, I go to Vegas, a place where it rains maybe maybe five times a year, which is crazy. And it's weird. And I'm like, this doesn't even feel real. Like, you know what I mean? Like, you realize I realize how much I miss the scent, the the petetro. You know what I mean? Like, how how valuable that is. And I'm like, why is it always sunny here? Yeah. This doesn't make any sense. Like, what the [bleep] It It's so crazy, bro. It doesn't feel real. It feels so artificial. Vegas is already a place made up, right? It's not It's not what its climate is desert, but they've built this [bleep] this city that was first made by the mob and now it's just completely I've never been to Vegas, but it's just completely different. It's It's Bro, it's it's weird. And and not to [bleep] on Nevada because there's so many like like there's so many beautiful like like the outskirts of Vegas there's there's so much there you can thrive there. It just wasn't for me and it's like there's this dry heat there and I I just I I live I've cut you off but yeah you're good. I I'm I'm originally from Phoenix and then I moved to Phoenix as an adult and it was like it was on and I was in Phoenix every summer because my mom lived there so it was like I I would uh you know everyone's like you go in the summer it's it's literally 117 or some [bleep] out here boiling but like that's what I was used to and you just stay inside when you're a kid but when I moved there when I was 28 it was like I and I lived there and as an adult and I had to you know get my own place get my all these things it was like my first time really living there. Mhm.

1:55:18 And uh you know, I started a new life there. And one thing I realized is I did need the sunshine cuz I was coming out of the most depressing ass winter. I had been fired on December 4th from a bartending gig where I had just gotten my skills together and had a somehow somehow scraped by till March. I don't know how. I had a place and and then I I moved out to Arizona in like April and I was OD depressed for the past four or five years and I realized how much sunlight helped me and then like I was probably still depressed for another 6 to 8 months to a year or so. But I needed the sunlight. But one thing I realized about Arizona, two things. I remember a girlfriend once saying I love the rain cuz I I was like I I hated the rain. The rain was it was very like [bleep] depressing. Depressing and like bleak and like [bleep] it's gonna rain. Like it [bleep] [bleep] up. It [bleep] [bleep] up. You can't have a cookout. Yeah. [laughter] It's just Why is it August and it's just pouring outside and then you get the winter cold rain and it just it's it's very different when you're from here. And she was like because they see the rain five times a year. She's like, "Oh my god, I love the rain." And people out there do love the rain. They don't know how to drive in the rain. They treat it like it's snow out here or some [bleep] Yeah, bro. Yeah. And it's like, sorry, coach. Go ahead. Go ahead.

1:56:37 Oh, no. It's just like uh you like to Arizona, you get that and you get these beautiful, you know, I'm sure like Nevada, the beautiful sunsets, the orange skies or pink scenery, the nature scenery is insane. But I do realize that we tend to get depressed out here, our seasonal depression. And I remember a teacher saying out there, coworker, um, she has seasonal depression from the heat. But I feel like after working in sober homes and behavioral living homes and just seeing the uh the craziness out there and the the drugs are way crazier, but the heat makes [bleep] crazy. The heat makes [laughter] [bleep] crazy. And you even look at like a, you know, RIP to the dude from Breaking Bad, but yeah, Breaking Bad depicted it so well like this like that the West Coast, Nevada, New Mexico, Arizona, that whole that is like a it makes sense that it's it's speed. It's meth what they're dealing because that's what it is. It's a meth kind of energy. And over here, and I guess everything now is like fentinol, but over here the the opioid epidemic was popping with like kind of the slower [bleep] Um, so it's it's it's a weird kind of like that was always just fascinating to me.

1:57:54 Like I was so depressed over here. I never went crazy over there, but I'm like I can imagine myself going nuts out here if I was like really raised out here. I was born out, but like really raised out here. Like this heat would make me crazy. Dude, the thing about it is like I've come to realize like cuz then I left there and then I went to I went to Maryland and like their winters aren't [bleep] to me because they're from [laughter] New York, right? So I mean it's like 25 out there and [bleep] are like it's freezing. I'm just walking out. I got a Northace fleece on like a like a hoodie underneath. My [bleep] I'm walking. I'm going. Yeah, I'm good. I'm like this ain't nothing to me. You know what I mean? or they got like a maybe two inches of snow and there's like a state of emergency like the [bleep] are y'all talking about? [laughter] You know what I'm saying? But it's like I've realized I need like just the very like and like mentally speaking the weather in your mind is what you need to be observant of. Like we go we all go through seasons, you know, ups and downs. That [bleep] is that [bleep] is a necessary part of life.

1:59:03 You know what I mean? It's it's just it's it's the flow of humanity. You know what I'm saying? If you're just if you're just like this all the time, like you're not human. You're a [bleep] robot, right? You know what I mean? And it's just like I realized with that, you know what I mean? And the seasons that we get here, you know what I mean? You get that humidity. You get that you get that frigidness. You get that you get you get that crisp wind in the fall. Like I need that n I need that flow. You know what I mean? that [bleep] It this is this is where humanity thrives. Like this is that to me, you know what I'm saying? Upstate New York. Like, you know what I mean? And and that's just what that's just what I need. You know what I mean? And you know, it's like I I I go through my natural ups and downs here, but it's like out there in these different like it felt so much more magnified. You know what I mean? But here I go through my natural ups and it's it's it's like I can I can control it so much better. You know what I mean? Maybe it's cuz it's home, but I just feel like there's there's something scientific. There's something biological to that. You know what I mean?

2:00:10 So yeah, I mean to answer your question, I think yeah, I' I've I've learn like this is this like just like on like this like my bio- rhythms and I'm I'm I'm just connected. I feel you. Yeah. It's like feet in the earth type [bleep] Yeah. You know what I mean? like this is it it's that [bleep] deep. It's so interesting because that's so real and that's like so like varity like you say like I feel that truth and I literally feel like my feet melting into cuz I I do like you know if the environment's right just like letting my feet soak into some some some uh some grass. Uh you know that said I'm like damn I'm about to head out west. Like I and one of the reasons is just cuz the winter like fall has been overtaken as like my favorite season here. I was always a summer kid and like spring used to be like a thing. It's like non-existent anymore. It just goes from like cold ass April to like I spring is like maybe a month long. But I I love spring when I was a kid. But I this is like my favorite season, but I can't do winters anymore. And there is a there is a part of me that was in Phoenix that was like this is kind of like you said unnatural cuz it is it is but it's also natural to you.

2:01:19 Yeah. Yeah. I just I know that those those winters just they they get to me. They the it's more so than the colds and it is cold but that darkness man it just it gets to me. It cuts my day in half and it just like very much like uh just after that last one I and I I survived and I was in a it was you know on the outside he'd be like man you're doing well you got this place this and that but no one ever entered that place. No, whenever. And I wasn't even I was working as a bartender, so I wasn't even isolating myself, but I I just know I can't do another winter here. So, like I said, I'm heading out west and whatnot. So, yeah, it's going to come. That said, I want to ask you um on the wrap up, brother man, um what part of yourself are you still trying to make peace with? Oh, that's a great question. Yeah. you know, I don't necessarily feel it now in this moment. Um, but I do feel like somewhere a part of me is like, damn, I I wish I wish my father got to see a little bit more of my success. But even me saying that is like, you know, I I know it to be true and I know it's going to be like it's going to maybe weigh on me heavier when I uh, you know, obtain whatever level of success I, you know, seek to be fulfilled in and I want to like completely, you know, keep the ego out of that as much as possible.

2:02:59 But I I I kind of know that to be true. But honestly, I'm I'm kind of at peace with myself, man. Like to be honest, like I've walked away from a lot of situations that are very that were very toxic for me. I've stepped away from things that I thought, "Oh, maybe this is not the right thing to put in the world." And I felt the gnawing of like, "No, you need to put that in the world. You need to be the one to put that in the world." So, I'm kind of at peace with myself. I just know I have to uh execute things and do things, but I I can't say that I'm not at at peace with doing that. I I I I could always, like I said, like write more, do like, but I'm I'm kind of like at peace with this. Anyone that I've personally um like family that I've had to maybe distance myself from or just friends without without question, if I've distanced myself from you as a friend, it was meant to be. I would either be in your life or not. There's nothing else keeping us other than friendship. Family, it's it's a little bit deeper than that. So, if I've distanced myself from family, you know, it's it's it's something that like I I feel at peace with. I don't feel like I'm I'm doing it for my peace essentially. Um but yeah, like parts of myself like I I I can honestly sit here and say like I feel pretty at peace with myself. I feel like I'm on the right path. I feel like I'm on the right journey and you know it's it's brick by brick. You mentioned discipline and I love that you see that because I I don't necessarily even I am a disciplined person but I don't necessarily see it in myself but I am a very like structured like disciplined and like there's this thing right now on social med and I was off social media for 6 years which is a crazy another beautiful thing but there's this thing right now that is kind of find it funny.

2:04:47 I kind of find it funny and it's just like just chip away. It's this football analogy like it's just about moving the chains. It's just about doing the little things right. And that that's kind of the season I'm at right now. So, um there's these lofty goals that I want to do uh novel wise, film making wise, podcast wise, just personhood. But like in terms of myself, like I've I've taken the risk of like, you know, leaving a Yale, dropping out and like being okay with that, doing that to to hop in this writer situation where I'm writing for somebody else and doing that and feeling good and then knowing this is a toxic situation. This is not the best person to be working with and writing for. And I left that and you know the things I need to get back to, right? Like I I I feel like like I I because I'm so disciplined with those things like uh I don't wait for inspiration but once the inspiration comes it will hit and I don't I don't I think I would be less at peace with myself if I wasn't like being who I say I am and that used to really drive me crazy.

2:05:58 I would go years without writing and [snorts] you know I was doing well in other places but that would that would drive me nuts and I I the finishing something was the most joyful thing finishing the screen you know what I mean that's better that's that's that's a drug in itself that's a drug in itself that's a drug in itself that's and no one's around to see that but it's like damn I finished my characters knowing it's really it writer's block it's a believe it or not it is a gift because when you're When you have that blockage, you're coming into something else entirely. You're coming into something greater than far greater than what you can comprehend. I've realized that I went I remember I went 10 years without writing and then I just poured out some of the most raw [bleep] you know what I mean? From the just all the pain I experienced. I wrote a book called Unhinged. Yeah. And it was powerful. I mean, somebody out in Australia gave me this glowing review on Amazon, but also like there were [bleep] that it was so real and raw and dark. Like, I really brought people into my personal hell. And there were [bleep] that would be talkative with me. One minute the book would sell out in the store that they worked at, which is good. But they read the book and them [bleep] don't [bleep] with me no more.

2:07:16 Oh [bleep] It was that powerful. You know what I'm saying? But I'm like, that's the this truly is power in words. Like I said, that's 10 years without writing. And that's what it you know, that's what it be. Yeah. And then I had this other wave that happened last summer. I hadn't written anything in two years. And then I just started coming out with some other with some other [bleep] I was like, and then like there were parallels like Arthur Remod, you know what I mean? I feel like I've heard the name. Uh, a season in hell. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to I'm going to tap into Yes. Yes. the 19th century 19th century writer. Uh young prodigy. He's I think he stopped writing after like 21. Damn. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. He was he's a hell of a guy. But I I was able to I tapped into him once I found out that there were parallels there. And uh I was like really immersing myself within uh Gonzoesque journalism. You know what I mean? Uh with Hunter S. Thompson Thompson and [bleep] You know what I'm saying? I'm just like all these things, you know what I mean? So, it's like I mean, if there's a writer, I'm I'm going to be honest with you. As a creative, it makes you feel like you're worthless. That's the only way to put it.

2:08:27 But it's like you're coming into something new. You're coming into something foreign. You're coming into the unknown. Yes. And it's like you just have to what? You have to allow yourself to just be to just be comfortable with that. Like if anything, like I I would love to be able to write. There's some [bleep] that I I need to be able to write this literary profile on this one artist that I haven't even I I I can't write right now and um I you know, but I'm able to immerse myself in this. So when I come back to it, you know what I mean? I know it's going to be that much more powerful. You know what I'm saying? But you just got to you just got to embrace you just got to embrace whatever whatever discomfort, whatever whatever obstacle, you just got to just let that [bleep] ride. You know what I mean? Cuz I'm telling you right now, bro, when you make it out of that, bro, it's off to the [bleep] races. Thank you, man. I've been saying that I was supposed to be doing this podcast since 2021 or somewhere 2021. I said I was going to do this [bleep] I ain't do it until now. And suddenly I and I'm suddenly I'm seeing all this momentum. I'm like, God, man. Even from when I got hooked, which was damn near last week, and then I'm seeing more and more. I'm seeing first of all I was amazed when I'm like oh dude a podcast that's dope but like I've seen uh just like maybe one or two other people do podcasts around here and I see the amount of views and then I see your [bleep] and I'm like damn this is a lot of views and then I see you know we mentioned the follow you got and I was like and that's in the span of I've been following you and I was like damn this is dope and I was just tapping into the clips via via IG. I need to get on my YouTube and like really you know obviously the vanity I'm going to watch this episode but run back other. But no, I I've loved this the people you've platformed. I've kind of seen their stories and yeah, those look dope, man. You had one real cool kind of gym going dude and my [bleep] Jordan Sanders.

2:10:18 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so dope. And like this is really like a it's everyone's kind of hometown story, but it's six degrees of separation here. Like yo, you know Maurice, you know Jordan. Like that's how it is in the 518. And then to double back on the writing, man, like I'm so like thank you because like I I've been and I have finished something. So that that makes you just feel so related and it builds so much trust in yourself. But I also know that like when you when you like I've heard so many people say this and this is why I love just listening to writers like even before I read them, just listening to them like uh when they when a writer will say like I I just wasn't old enough to write that. I wasn't mature enough to write that yet. like I I wasn't you know you know I could just tell you know we dive into deep things that we write you know you talked about someone kind of not [bleep] with you because of what you wrote or someone in Australia feeling that pain. It's like but you had to be that version of yourself to write it. You know what I mean? and the things you do in the future. Um, both you and just you second person me like you kind of you kind of have to be and I I've just noticed this a little bit lifeier, a little bit more mature to to write things and you know even to be addressed about your writing when you're platformed for the next thing you're the next book you write the next article you write and someone's asking you about it.

2:11:43 You want to make sure you're the wisest, most intelligent, most equipped person to answer those questions. Um cuz it's a serious thing. Like you said, words are powerful, words are vicious. Like you want to make sure you know uh what cuz it doesn't always it's not even yours anymore. It's yours, but it exists in the world. So it's like you want to make sure you you uh are equipped and are saying the right things. Honestly, that's a fact. Yeah. because I I very much think that like that's part of the journey. There's the writing of it, but then there's the almost like an artist going on tour, the the the speaking about it. What did you mean? Cuz so much with writing is like yes, it's on the page, but we want to hear what you have to especially in today's world. But like um Yeah. Yeah. I just some of the the writers like I love like they they're great speakers. Mhm. Some are, you know, some they're just they're they're really not the best. They're just not the best. They're probably great at having conversations, but they don't always do the best interviews, which is why I think this is this has been a conversation. You know what I mean? But like I can just listen to Zadeie Smith just talk. Um, you know, he spoke about Baldin. Truman Capot was a great talker. Tony Morrison was one of the greatest just speakers. like just listening to her speak and um I think that's the gift, you know, with us that are blessed to have this gift of being writers, you know. Mhm. Yeah.

2:13:10 And uh my final question for you today, cuz you said that you're so much at peace with yourself, kind of segueing from that, if the way you live today continued for another 10 years, who do you think you'd become? Um, you know, that's that's a great question and the first thing that's going to spot out of my mouth, even though it sounds contradictory, is not the person I want to become. Fair enough. Not the person I wanted to become, just cuz there's so much luggage. There's so much weight. There's so much things that I I need to I'm taking so much in right now, but I need to release those things. You know, even something as simple as like screenshot these things on your phone. screenshot these things on your phone to like uh post these quotes in the future or do these workouts in the future or live this way in the future. Whereas, no, you got to have to start doing those things. So I I don't think I would be the person I would want to be just because like you first of all you should always be growing. But second of all like I think that this is a I've been additive right now in this life just acquiring so much either if it's information knowledge or just personal luggage like just things emotional things that I'm just acquiring and I think I need to release a lot. I think I need to release a lot. Maybe I'm not in the season of release, but 10 years from now, I I can't be doing the same thing.

2:14:34 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Understood, bro. I very much appreciate your time today, man. Absolutely, man. This is amazing. This was a great great great conversation, man. I appreciate you having me on, bro. Yes, sir. Appreciate you, man.